John 2 - A Miracle and Tables Turned with Katie Marsh and Julie Gariss - 47

The wine runs out at a wedding, and Jesus doesn’t just solve an awkward problem; He reveals what He’s like: generous, attentive, and overflowing with joy. We sit with John 2 alongside Katie Marsh and first-time guest Julie Garris as we trace the layers in Jesus turning water into wine, from the servants’ quiet obedience to the deeper picture of transformation and abundant grace that never runs dry. If you’ve been carrying an empty place, this passage meets you with hope that’s both personal and powerful. 

Then the tone changes fast. Jesus enters the temple courts at Passover and flips tables, confronting a worship system twisted by greed and distraction. We talk about holy anger, reverence, and what it means when Jesus refuses to let God’s house become a marketplace. That leads us straight into modern church questions: celebrity culture, platform-building, and why we can drift into valuing marketing over intercession and speed over depth without even noticing. 

We also get practical about spiritual renewal and Christian community. We wrestle with what we can actually do, not just complain about, and we come back to a simple daily question: “Lord, what is one thing I can do for You today?” If you’re hungry for real discipleship, small-group life, and a faith that looks like love in action, press play and join us. Subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the Gospel of John series.

Transcript

Welcome And Series Setup

Kim McIntire 0:08

Welcome everyone to the It's Time to Rise Up Podcast. I'm your host, Kim McIntire. I pray you are encouraged, strengthened, and blessed by what is spoken today. If you're not familiar with our show, please check out our website at itstimetoriseup.org. There you will find our social media links. And for our podcast platforms, you can find us on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere else you find your podcast. We are excited about our series through the Gospel of John. This week we'll be in chapter two. Our approach isn't complicated. We're just friends and sisters in Christ sitting around the table, opening God's word and asking his Holy Spirit to teach us. There is no script. We are just here to talk through the truths, hope, encouragement, and even some correction this gospel brings. I want to welcome back Katie Marsh into the studio. Hello. Thank you for coming back, Katie. Thanks for having me. So glad you're here. And also Julie Garris, who is Katie's mom and my friend, and she's a first-time guest. I'm so honored to have both of you here. Thank you for taking your time to speak into our listeners. Julie, you are a spiritual mom to so many, including me. We've prayed together. You've spoken wisdom and truth into my life. And I'm so grateful for the teaching gift God has given you. And

Meet Julie And Katie

Kim McIntire 1:30

I'm excited for our listeners to be part of this conversation as they listen. The one thing that I would like for you to do before we start is just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

Julie Gariss 1:40

Okay. Well, um, Randy and I, Randy Garris and I have been married for 50 years. That's amazing. So we had our anniversary this year on January 3rd. Congratulations. Thank you. Wow. And you'll make it. I think you're gonna make it. I think we're gonna make it. I think you are. We've been in ministry that long. Incredible. Uh together. And then we have uh three kids and eleven grandchildren. The delight of our lives are those kiddos. Um is your favorite? Um well, depending on who I'm with.

Kim McIntire 2:16

The time of day, the mood that they're in. Absolutely. It's a full life. It's a full life. Yes, that's wonderful. Well, thank you for being here, Julie. So we are going to um just begin by reading this chapter, the second chapter of John. If you are not driving and you're able to grab your Bible and a notebook and a pen, we would love for you to join us as we read through this. So just press pause, grab your Bible, hop back in with us. We're gonna start out with um, Katie, just open

Reading John 2 At Cana

Kim McIntire 2:50

in the text and reading this first passage for us.

Katie Marsh 2:52

Okay, verse one and chapter two of John. The next day, Jesus' mother was a guest at a wedding celebration in the village of Cana in Galilee. Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the celebration. The wine supply ran out during the festivities, so Jesus' mother spoke to him about the problem. They have no more wine, she told him. How does that concern you and me? Jesus asked. My time has not yet come. But his mother told the servants, Do whatever he tells you. Six stone water pots were standing there. They were used for Jewish ceremonial purposes and held twenty to thirty gallons each. Jesus told the servants, fill the jars with water. When the jars had been filled to the brim, he said, Dip some out and take it to the master of the ceremonies. So they followed his instructions. When the master of ceremonies tasted the water that was now wine, not knowing where it had come from, though of course the servants knew, he called the bridegroom over. Usually a host serves the best wine first, he said. Then when everyone is full and doesn't care, he brings out the less expensive wines, but you have kept the best until now. This miraculous sign at Cana in Galilee was Jesus' first display of his glory, and his disciples believed in him. After the wedding, he went to Capernaum for a few days with his mother, his brothers, and his disciples.

Kim McIntire 4:13

Wow.

Invitation, Obedience, Abundant Joy

Kim McIntire 4:15

Well, when we're looking at this, the first thing that that comes to my mind is Jesus accepted an invitation.

Katie Marsh 4:24

Yeah, that's true.

Kim McIntire 4:26

Just imagine had Jesus not been there, how different would this story have been for the family? And I thought to myself, isn't it true that when Jesus accepts the invitation, everything changes? Not just in this story. Absolutely. But when he's invited into our lives, when he's invited into a situation, a problem, a celebration, that is what changes everything. He is what changes everything. So that's my out the gate thought. It's that's good. It's just so, so rich. Yeah. What are you how are you ladies responding to this first section?

Julie Gariss 5:13

Well, um, there's a coup well, there's a lot of things I I'm thinking of, but um I think it's so interesting that Jesus replies to his mother not as mom, not as mother, but as woman. And it wasn't disrespectful. It was uh you know, I've read that it was similar to what um if somebody were talking to me today and um my son, if he would say lady, it's it's more respectful than how we hear woman sometimes. Or ma'am, I think I'm yes, exactly.

Kim McIntire 5:52

So Because in our culture that almost sounds it is sound disrespectful. Yes. Woman, get in your place, exactly woman, shut your mouth, yes, whatever.

Julie Gariss 6:03

But I do think he is drawing a line. And um now he has been for all these years in submission to his mother um and taking care of her, and now his ministry is beginning. And so there's there is a line drawn, and now she's going to be more in submission to him.

Kim McIntire 6:28

Yeah.

Julie Gariss 6:29

So I think that's one of the first things I would think of.

Kim McIntire 6:34

I'm wondering, too, if that would have been like a marker of his authority in a way that it hadn't been before. Maybe hadn't been verbalized before that got her attention, I'm sure, but it didn't seem to distract her from the purpose, right? Because she still she she still expects that.

Julie Gariss 6:57

But it's interesting to me. I'm just going, how in the world does she know to ask him to take care of this? Yeah.

Kim McIntire 7:06

That's just fascinating. I I will tell you, I can't take credit for this. I I heard this. I believe it was Tim Keller was saying Mary remembered what the angels had said. Yes, absolutely. And so that spiritual perception was just stirred up in her. Right. But but when you talk about when she's when he when he's replies the way that he does, dear woman, that's not our problem. Right. My time has not yet come, she's not thinking the answer's no. Right. She's thinking, my son can do anything.

Katie Marsh 7:44

Well, you know, she's been waiting a long time at this point, right? And she's got all this knowledge, like you said, you know, that from the angel. So I'm sure she was very eager to get the show on the road, so to speak, because she doesn't know what it means. I don't think she knows there's a cross at the end of it. She doesn't, all she knows is he's he's the one, and people need to know this, right? So, you know, her response is always super interesting to me, the do whatever he tells you to do. And I don't know if it was I'm curious, so much of this, you know, is just speculation. We don't really know, but I don't know if it was a response of submission in of itself, in the sense of if he tells you to do something, do it. If he's not gonna do anything, that's okay too. You know what I mean? Like, so I don't know if it was complete like, watch out, this is gonna be good, or all right, do whatever whatever he tells you to do, that's what we're gonna do.

Kim McIntire 8:37

So that's a good point. I don't know.

Katie Marsh 8:42

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But it is interesting that and I do wonder also, this is the first miracle recorded, right, for Jesus. But we know from John at the end that books couldn't contain all that he said and did. Exactly. So she may have been privy to some previous experiences with him as well, that it just it just makes sense to ask him for this, right? Like this is a solution that you can fix. But it's also kind of interesting that the turning the water into wine is, you know, the f probably I'm trying to think, you know, if you guys correct me if I'm wrong, but back in the Old Testament, the first miracle we see with water is Moses turning the water to blood, right? So it has this very negative, dark connotation with it. True. And then we have Jesus who's gonna come with a new covenant of joyful expectation and celebration, and you're turning now water into wine.

Julie Gariss 9:41

But that's true. And it does have a lot of connotations. The the whole wine business of uh uh Isaiah talks about uh the the wine flowing, you know, in chapter 25. I forget how it's worded exactly, and there's other chapters as well. I think Amos and even Malachi, but um that's fascinating in itself. And then Jesus talking about uh the banquet that's to be held. That's right, you know, and I always love the part where he says, uh, I won't have this, the fruit of this vine, until I'm with you again. That's right. And can you imagine I'm I mean, I'm just trying to picture that in heaven, what that banquet is going to be like. And he's waited supposedly all this time, if we understand it correctly.

Kim McIntire 10:36

It's true. And and I'm just wondering, was Jesus thinking about that in this moment? No. I think he surely he was. Revelation 19, I believe, the marriage supper of the lamb. Yes. And and that he was the bridegroom.

Julie Gariss 10:51

Yes.

Kim McIntire 10:52

He was the bridegroom and he would be prepared for the feast. He was the preparation. Yes. So what a beautiful picture that goes beyond just the surface of the story, but into the deeper context of the story. Do you do either of you have any thought? Well, I do want to note this. I love that the servants obeyed. Yeah. Yes. They just obeyed. They it doesn't say they ask any questions.

Julie Gariss 11:18

I know. And and I love that Mary says whatever he says, do you do it. And I was reading a quote by Spurgeon that I I just love it because um it's such a pattern for us to when Jesus says something, you need to do it. Yeah. So Spurgeon says, this is a pattern for our faith and obedience. When you are bid and oh, and he tells them, the servants, to fill it up to the brim. Yeah. That's right. He says, this is a pattern for faith and obedience. When you are bidden to believe in him, believe in him up to the brim. When you are told to love him, love him up to the brim. And when you are commanded to serve him, serve him up to the brim.

Kim McIntire 12:05

Amen. Wow. I love that. That quote will preach. Yeah, it does preach. So, so good. Do either of you have thoughts about the six stone water jars that they used? These were used for Jewish ceremonial washing, and each could hold 20 to 30 gallons. I have some thoughts, but I'm wondering if you guys have any questions.

Julie Gariss 12:31

Yeah.

Kim McIntire 12:31

Well, I my understanding is that those held water for purification for the purpose of washing feet, which we don't get. We just don't get that in our culture. But in their culture, it was necessary. They were either dirty from dust or dirty from mud, depending on what the weather was, and also used for um the washing of hands, not just before a meal, but in between in between courses of a meal for the um purpose of clean, being cleaned, being cleansed. And so I feel that that holds a significant truth as well, because Jesus is basically saying this is the purification ceremony, but that is no longer going to be required because of my blood. And so that that's my thoughts. Um, just taking that water and making it turning it into wine is like the purification ceremony turned into grace. That may not be the best way to speak it, but that's the way my heart receives that.

Julie Gariss 13:39

This is a a miracle that is going to show from the very beginning Jesus' abundance, his generosity. It's a luxury miracle. It's it's and he so all of Jesus is luxury. Yes. All of Jesus is all always, yes, lavish. It's always above and beyond. And um I I guess I think that's also something for us to pay attention to as disciples of his. We we go the extra mile. We we do the extra thing. But that's the lovely thing about this miracle, is that here's a family that actually could have had a lawsuit. That's how this is how big a deal it was. A lawsuit against them if they did not provide for their guests. That sounds ridiculous to us. Yeah. But it was a big deal back then. It was a sacred honor. And I love that when Jesus says, you know, woman, my my hour's not yet come. I think though, in the middle of that, because we know he did nothing without asking the father, he has that time of going, okay, is this okay to do, Lord? Is this okay to do? And and so he does it, and and then just the the incredible uh way it goes that this is even the better wine. Now this family's now this family's got what 120 to 180 gallons, yeah. Gallons of of wine.

Kim McIntire 15:23

Yeah.

Julie Gariss 15:24

Um, and I don't know if Jesus purposely, I know the wine for the most part, they were never drunk on wine that much.

Kim McIntire 15:33

So I've read that historically that was actually a social disgrace. Yes. Yes.

Julie Gariss 15:39

Yes.

Kim McIntire 15:39

And that Jesus wouldn't be wanting them to be socially disgraced. He would want them to be socially blessed.

Julie Gariss 15:45

But did he give them enough so that they could sell it to actually more provide for their livelihood?

Kim McIntire 15:54

Help provide. It goes back to abundance. It does. I think that's the bigger point about the the stone jars is that there was an abundance. Um I also think there's some some symbolism about the new covenant there is a couple of things.

Katie Marsh 16:07

Yeah, and I think picking up what you said, like, you know, yes, wash your hands, wash your feet, you know, make yourself right before God, right? And then Jesus obviously is gonna change all that, but you know, what we know now on this side of the cross is when we are dipped into the water, we come out an entirely new thing. It's not, it's not, you know, us coming out just a little bit better version of ourselves. It's a transformation from from water to wine, you know, that big of a change. Um, and it's done once for all time instead of re-dip, redip, redip, you know.

Kim McIntire 16:44

The abundant grace. Yeah. The abundant grace that seems to never run out with the Lord. Yes. Other thoughts.

Julie Gariss 16:55

Well, um it's a private, it's a private miracle. It is. It was for his disciples to know who he is. And um, I mean, they're starting on this road with him and this was really important for them to see who he was. And I think they're going to, you know, it's not that they forget in the coming years ahead of walking with Jesus. It's like, you know, how I I know I would be the same way. Sometimes we look at them and go, How how d how dense can you be? You know. But I think in our believing Jesus, we're doing it over and over again.

Kim McIntire 17:41

True.

Julie Gariss 17:42

You know, you're just always learning to believe in a little deeper way. True. And struggling along the way. And then struggling, absolutely. Now at my age, at 71 years old, I'm going, oh, my belief is so much deeper than it would have been in my 20s or 30s. Absolutely. So that keeping that repeat of believing again, believing again, it just it's it's it's going deeper and deeper and deeper into this mind that just does not quit. It's a it's a richness there that's wonderful.

Kim McIntire 18:16

It's absolutely true. So, in summary of that first passage, I want to just share a quote from William Berkeley. No wedding party on earth could drink 180 gallons of wine. No need on earth can exhaust the grace of Christ. There is a glorious superabundance in it. John is telling us that in Jesus the imperfections have become perfection and the grace has become ill illimitable, sufficient and more than sufficient for every need. I would agree.

Julie Gariss 18:56

When really there's two miracles here. There's the miracle of turning the water into wine, but the very fact that it was turned into such great wine. I know nothing about wine other than it takes a lot of years for it to get there.

Kim McIntire 19:13

That's right.

Julie Gariss 19:14

To to be some of the best wine. And so you stop and think in an instantaneous moment, Jesus does this and took away years of what it would have taken to make this wine be the best.

Kim McIntire 19:32

It's true. And something I want to add that I meant to talk about earlier was it represented joy. Yes. It represented celebration. Yes. Some people, that's a stretch for people for different convictions that some hold. But the truth is it was it was representing joy. And so Jesus was the bringer of joy.

Julie Gariss 19:54

Yes.

Kim McIntire 19:55

And this represents that as well. A superabundance of joy. Yes. And so there are so many layers to these this very short passage in John chapter 2, but so good for the heart. Reminders. You know, Jesus is our joy. Yeah. And there's there's never we can't exhaust it. It's it does have no limit. That's right. So thank you, Lord. So we are going to move into um the next section of the passage

Reading The Temple Cleansing

Kim McIntire 20:25

where Jesus clears the temple. Julie, do you want to read through that?

Julie Gariss 20:29

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts, he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle. He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves, he said, Get these out of here. Stop turning my father's house into a market. And his disciples remembered that it is written, Zeal for your house will consume me. The Jews then responded to him, What sign can you show us to prove your authority to to do all you all of this? And Jesus answered them, Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days. So they replied, It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you're going to raise it in three days. But the temple he had spoken of was his body. And after he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. Do you want me to continue? Sure. Yeah. Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name, but Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. He did not need any testimony about Mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Kim McIntire 22:05

Powerful text. So Jesus in the wedding

Holy Anger And Corrupt Worship

Kim McIntire 22:10

at Cana is ushering in joy. Jesus comes into the temple and he's ushering in judgment. So what a contrast.

Julie Gariss 22:22

What a contrast.

Kim McIntire 22:23

It reminds me of how some people, I've even had, I would say myself even have at times in my life had this view of Jesus that he's all joy, he's all love, he's all grace, goodness, mercy, kindness, compassion while neglecting to recognize he's the God of judgment and wrath, and he will hold his people accountable. Yes. You know? And so here, John includes these two, these two stories that really contrast the character of our God. They both have a rightful place in in our beliefs and in who Jesus is. So what thoughts are we wanting to share about this section?

Julie Gariss 23:17

Well, I think it's interesting. Um some of the information I got was from Mark Moore's commentary on the life of Christ. And um I strongly recommend his commentaries on the life of Christ. But um he was talking about how this had it was actually called Anisa's Bazaar, uh, the high priest, because of it was just it was a money-making deal. Oh, sure. Sure. So he said this is what would happen. People would bring in um, and for the rich it wouldn't have been that big a deal, but for poor people, and and you've got hundreds and hundreds and thousands coming into Jerusalem from all over. Some only could make that trip once in a lifetime, maybe. Sure. So they come in and they're bringing in their sacrifice, whatever it may be, is sheep or cattle or whatever, doves, whatever. But the um ones who would check these out to see if there was any blemishes, they would always find a blemish. That was part of the scheme. So they would take them back to the priest's pins and then they would still use those, bless them, and then use them for somebody else. But for that one person that that wasn't a good enough one, they had to find a kosher one that they would bring out of the pins that they had to pay an exorbitant price for.

Kim McIntire 24:47

Yeah.

Julie Gariss 24:48

And so it became just a money-making situation for these very corrupt. Very corrupt. Even even when you're when you came from another place, another country, they would the money changers, you had to pay um a fee for having the money exchanged into a shekel or whatever it may be. Right, right. So they they cost them a fortune there as well. So people are coming to what is supposed to be worship angry. They're upset. Right. And Jesus sees what's going on and he is angry. Yes. In a way he should be. Yes. The word consumed when it says zeal for your house will consume me means he's eaten up by it. That's right. It's not just his passion for the Lord's house. That word actually means I can't handle this. I can't take this. Yeah. We're gonna do something about this. And did he? And did he, yes.

Kim McIntire 25:52

And did he? I when I've read this, I've thought about when you were saying, you know, the temple to be a holy place, a sacred place, a place of reverence. And there's this the sacrificial aspect that, you know, I I feel like it's difficult for us to really wrap our brains around our minds around that because we haven't ever had to do that. But, you know, there was there had to be a price paid for sin. And so I'm thinking you're bringing your animal or you're trying to get one good enough to offer by buying another. And I'm like, the whole purpose of bringing the sacrifice is to remember something had to die for my sin to be taken care of. And how in the chaos of all of the selling and negotiating and profiting, that had to have been lost.

Julie Gariss 26:49

No, yes. I would think so.

Kim McIntire 26:52

Just the thought of why are we sacrificing? Why are we here?

Julie Gariss 26:56

Why are we It became commonplace?

Kim McIntire 26:58

It just became commonplace. We're sacrificing now so Bob can buy his boat over there.

Katie Marsh 27:02

Yes, right.

Kim McIntire 27:03

And I feel like that was a component of the anger that Jesus was feeling was first of all, he knows he's the sacrificial lamb. He knows what he's facing to pay the price and to recognize that they're not focused on the shedding of blood for the remission of sin. Right. Yeah. And it it's, I mean, honestly, it's it's unsettling, even just to think about. But then I'm re then I also recognize how often do I myself forget to acknowledge what Jesus has done for me when I'm in the house of the Lord. How often do I go in distracted or my mind's on other things? I know it's not the same story, but we have we're human. But I'm just saying, but it's convicting Kim. That's that's a big deal too. It is a big deal. Bring that in. And I I just think, Lord, may I never enter, and I know we know Jesus is the temple, but when we go in, when we enter into worship or we are entering into communion and we're going into a place of, you know, just to honor the Lord. Right. It are our hearts postured and our minds set on why we are there. And I feel like this applies to today in a different kind of way. Um, just Lord, like may we not lose the reverence and awe of who you are and what you've done. That we're not just here to feel better about ourselves. We're not here for what we can gain. Right. We're here because you gave everything for us. And I think that's part of what he was so upset by.

Julie Gariss 28:47

Yes.

Kim McIntire 28:48

Was they're not participating in the purpose. My my house is a house of prayer. Right. And so, anyway, that really just strikes a chord with me.

Katie Marsh 29:01

Yeah. And I think, you know, God has already told the Israeli nation they're supposed to be a kingdom of priests to the nations, right? Yes. Yes, yes, there are supposed to be people who are bringing people to the Lord, acting as a bridge, a way for them to meet the God that created them. And so, you know, according to most commentaries, they think this was usually happening out in the Gentile court. And that was as far as those foreigners could go. There's no you don't go in the inner court, you don't go in the, you know, holy of holies area, you you're consigned to the outer court. And so a nation that's supposed to be not just honoring the Lord themselves, but serving as a bridge for others to get to know the Lord, it's like they've created this Branson atmosphere for them to worship in. And how distracting would that be, right? So you're absolutely there's no there's no ability to worship well, and not only just distracting, but manipulative and really malicious intent in the sense of greed and destruction. And so there was no intent to actually worship God. It was just to take advantage of the nations as they come in at that point. Um so I undoubtedly he was very upset by that, you know.

Kim McIntire 30:15

Yes, yes. It's I think it's hard for some people to picture this because Jesus is often so gentle. Again, it goes back to the gentle, kind, compassionate, merciful, patient God that he is. But there's a part there's a line that if you cross, that's that's the part of God you see.

Julie Gariss 30:35

Yes.

Kim McIntire 30:36

And this is an example of that.

Julie Gariss 30:39

It truly is. And this and he starts his ministry with cleansing the temple. He will also close his ministry not too far away from his his death. That's so true. The temple will be cleansed again. More than likely, two separate situations because of how they're talked about in the synoptic gospels compared to John. So

What Jesus Would Confront Today

Julie Gariss 31:05

that's a good point. Yeah. And and I had never even thought about that. I I never had.

Katie Marsh 31:10

That's powerful. You know, of course, as we think about this, the question then becomes, what does this mean for us today? And you know, you've you've hinted to that as well, a little bit in the sense of just our own heart when we enter into worship. Um, but I mean, we have to ask the question is if Jesus would walk into our churches today. But even more than that, like we're the we're the priests now, right? We're the temple now. We uh not not a building, not a place. So if he would walk into our lives and our places of worship, then what tables would he be turning over? True. And I and I think especially over the last, I think we've had this conversation many times, and Kim and my mom and multiple people. But I think there's a lot of stripping away that would happen. I think there'd be a lot of tables he'd be turning over in our congregations. I do do too. And I think some of it we've just gotten used to, and it's just kind of like status quo, and and but we have got really confused, I believe, on what is worship and what is what is a part of worship.

Kim McIntire 32:17

Right.

Katie Marsh 32:18

Um there's a it's kind of a long, little long of a quote, but I read an article where a guy is talking about this turning to the tables passage, and he talks about how, you know, some of this really stems with our obsession with um with pastors and just the fame that can come along with pastors and churches today. And and and and so that draw that they have for that focus to be on them. And so he says this, he said, we don't need more case studies of how this pastor-centered culture can wreak havoc on the church. Because we are a pastor-centered culture. There's no doubt about it. It's true. The headlines keep coming in, scandals abound, pastors fall from grace, trust is broken. The Western spotlight in celebrity pastors has distorted our vision of pastoral calling. We now risk raising up young leaders who pursue pastoral ministry, not because of what the Bible calls them to do, but to be recognized for the platform, the followers, the promise of a successful career. This is what I want you to catch. When this distorted image of pastoral ministry enters the church, it begins to reshape everything else the church does. Without realizing it, we began to worry more about marketing than about intercession. We trust more in the reach of social media than in the power of fasting. We rejoice when the churches are full, regardless of whether people are actually being discipled. It starts to feel normal and we don't notice how far we've drifted. With good intentions, many of us have adopted styles, strategies, or services that we think define what a modern church should look like. We've shortened services for convenience, we've streamlined the flow and tightened every transition, we craft messages too blunted to penetrate the heart. To make room for the next service, we rush people out of the sanctuary, cutting off any possibility of fellowship and community. What should feel like family starts to feel like a forced event, and somehow in that process the pastor has stopped smelling like sheep. He's no longer among the flock, but is instead surrounded by cameras and lights. We've traded depth for speed, surrender for shine.

Kim McIntire 34:15

And it's all true. Every word of that is true. Unfortunately. Yeah. But it's not bigger than God.

Katie Marsh 34:24

No. And I saw we can say it's a pastor, it's it's all of us, right? We've sure we're we've all been a part of it, um, for no doubt about it. And I sure someone wrote, Father, forgive me for the times I've craved a place at the table you would have flipped. And I've I've thought about that today. Is there's just an innate desire in each of us for the wrong things, you know? And so recognition or whatever it might be. Yeah, yeah. And and anywhere that there's a place at the table that promotes ourselves, we kind of want that place, you know. And those are the tables that Jesus wants to flip. Absolutely. You know, pride and arrogance and greed and selfishness and everything that takes the focus off of him. That's true. That's really what it's at.

Kim McIntire 35:14

It's true. Yeah, I I think often about like the early church and how that looked, and if we could be there to see it and experience it, and how I believe it was the heart of God because he gave instruction on what that was to look like and it was followed, and how far we've drifted, how far I've drifted. Um how far they drifted very quickly, very quickly.

Julie Gariss 35:44

They drifted. True. True. There's no there were problems in the church then too.

Kim McIntire 35:49

Absolutely. But I I I have this sense, I've prayed for revival for a long time, and I continue to, but I have this sense in my spirit that revival is going to look much different than we would expect for it to look. Yes. Because revival may happen when we aren't allowed to meet in large buildings. And that may be when the great awakening comes, when people are in groups of 10 or 20 or 30 or less in their homes, praying, worshiping, breaking bread, listening to God's word. And we're actually desperate for the Lord. When we're desperate. And um as as as great of a price as that sounds like it would be, I think it would be a price worth paying in the spiritual realm to have the benefit of like this is truly the heart of God for people to do this spiritual life connected together, utterly reliant on me, not reliant on any of the systems that we are so reliant on now.

Julie Gariss 36:52

We've got it backwards. The Western Church has backwards. We have to look to the countries that are suffering the persecution that we can't even imagine. And yet they will say, We pray for you. That's right. Because you still don't know how deep you can go with God. It's true. And they're happy. Yeah. They're happy even in the middle of their suffering. That's what Jesus can do for us. And and I'm I love that they can say that. I I know that it's possible that we will someday experience that as well. But it's my hope that even in the middle of if that would happen to us, we'll be okay. Oh, yes. You know, we're gonna be okay. It's not gonna be pretty, but we'll be okay.

Kim McIntire 37:41

Yeah, because our hope is heaven.

Julie Gariss 37:43

Absolutely. This our citizenship is there.

Katie Marsh 37:46

Our citizenship is in heaven. So I guess the question is, what do we what do we, me, Kim, you, what, what do we do based off of this as we look at our churches? I mean, obviously pray, right? That's uh first and foremost, is ask for the Lord to strip down what is not of him. But what beyond that, like, and maybe that's too open-ended of a question, I don't know. But like, I feel like we see the problems a lot. Do we just wait and pray? Pray and wait.

Kim McIntire 38:20

That's a really great question, Katie. I I feel like the Lord's been really speaking to my heart about small group community and how in the season that we are in, Everett and I now, we've drifted a little away from

Revival Through Homes And Community

Kim McIntire 38:40

that in the name of resting. Um, but I feel that if there is a solution to this, it is people recognizing that it has to be more than a Western culture Sunday morning experience. Absolutely. And that has to begin with us as individuals. And I was literally just praying about this yesterday because I had made a comment to a friend that we had no intention to start a life group in the fall. And I was like convicted right after it came out of my mouth. But, you know, and I do think small group is about fellowship, but the sweetest, deepest, most intimate spiritual moments are when you're praying together and reading the word and being transparent about these are my struggles. Right. These are my re this is my victory, these are my victories, rather. And doing that every day up and down life together, that everyone's living. Yes, that we do it in isolation rather than in community. And I feel like that's part of the solution is I think, yeah, I agree, Kim.

Katie Marsh 39:50

I think that's kind of where I land too, because you know, mom's um sermon on Sunday made me powerful. And I've thought of that a lot, especially that um bone-deep commitment that she talked about the said, the the love, unfailing love, steadfast love. I mean, it's a whole gamut of of understanding behind it, but stems from the Lord, but that's how we're supposed to treat one another. And and there's just not space for it, obviously, in our Sunday morning gathering. And so if I've looked at my own life and like, I've got to, Lord, help me with that. Like, how do I have a bone deep commitment to the people around me? Because the truth of the matter is it's no different, right? If we're supposed to be a kingdom of priests, we are now a kingdom of priests. Yes. So how am I bridging people to God? To God. And I can't do it if my life's closed off, right? It's true. And and we you know, we talked about in that quote, you know, the the the pedestal of pastors. And but part of that is we have done that as congregative. Because we don't want the responsibility. You go take care of that problem, you take care of that problem. I don't know the answer, you deal with that. And I think it's time for the people of God to say no more. I'm I'm now the image bearer of God, and we can take care of this problem together, right? We take on ownership. Yeah, we do. And and it's like it's it's no more, it's it's taking, it's moving away from this, and this is not a political statement, but it's the way the government, we think the government's supposed to take care of everything. Well, that doesn't work. People have to take care of people. That's right. That's right. And so anything else will fail. Right. And so I wonder if like our churches, if we just buckled down and say that's what we're doing, we're just going to to a point where it causes sacrifice for ourselves, take care of one another. Even if I'm even if I'm left on the short end of the stick with this, yeah, I think we'd see a difference. I agree. In our churches. I agree.

Julie Gariss 41:41

But if if we did that, can you imagine the impact? That's what Jesus was saying. By this, will all men know that you're my disciples, that you love one another. If we learn how to do it in the church, then we can also learn how to do it outside the church, but also it becomes it becomes the winsome welcome that people are looking for. I want to be a part of that. Right. I want to be a part of that kind of fellowship because my life is so empty right now.

Katie Marsh 42:21

It's the taste and see that the Lord is good. Yeah. And and it should look remarkably different than the way the rest of the world fellowships. Right. Yes. And we don't look remarkably different. And we don't. It's true, Katie. In fact, you can It's true. And well, if you take, I'm just throwing this out there, like the the lesbian gay community, the number one draw to that community, you ask anybody. Yes. It's the fellowship. That is true. It's the way they just link arms and say, I'm not leaving you, you're with me, I'll take care of you. And so people are, they need they need something different, you know? And we have the ability to have this ability to take care of people from the Holy Spirit given to us with the love that God's instilled in us. And then I look at my own life, I'm like, well, you can be pretty selfish. So Lord, I think, Lord, help us. Help us.

Kim McIntire 43:08

Yeah, I I had to pray that after I listened to your message, Julie. We were driving home from Arkansas listening to your message. And when you were talking about Hesed, my first thought, and I'm I'm just confessing this, was I'm too exhausted. Oh, I know. And I'm like, Yeah. Okay, that the enemy wants us to believe. Yeah. We're too exhausted. Well, Kim, here's the deal. Can we truly love? That's a lie from the enemy. We're not too tired to love.

Julie Gariss 43:37

We paralyze ourselves because we can't imagine it's gonna be all of us together that makes this work. Right. Kim can't take care of everybody. Right. Julie can't take care of anybody everybody, nor should we. Right. Again, that's true. Everybody has to have ownership in this. And and that's why we struggle.

Katie Marsh 44:03

And and we look too far down the road. And it can't be missed in two years. I can't be doing this. And you know, and it has to be a daily, just give us this day, Lord, our daily bread. That's not just about provision. That's about the strength and the sustenance to actually live out, right? Yes. To live out the day-to-day. And so part of this will help us if we just take off our future glasses there and and just say, all right, God's going to take care of today for me.

Julie Gariss 44:28

Amen. And I think the source. I think if we just ask a simple question when we get up in the morning and we're visiting with the Lord, what is it you would have me do? At least can I do one thing that matters to someone else in their life? Yes. That's probably further along than many of us would be. It's true. Because we live in a culture of distraction. There's always going to be something to take my mind away from what I could be doing in the Lord.

Katie Marsh 45:02

Can you imagine how that delights the Lord? Like if my kid woke up and was like, what can I do to help you today, Mom?

Kim McIntire 45:07

Yes. That's really a powerful question to be

One Thing To Do Today

Kim McIntire 45:10

asking God. Thank you for that, Julie. Yeah. So I would just put out that challenge to our listeners. Let's all agree that in the morning when we wake and we're talking to the Lord, we say, Lord, what can we do for you? What can I do for you today? One thing. One thing can I do for you today, Lord.

Katie Marsh 45:28

And can you, I mean, with the ability that the Lord has and the way he's orchestrating things, to multiply it. To multiply. Sometimes that one thing you'll have no clue. But other times you may show up and that one thing led to, you know, it it led to Sammy Brighaman, you know, taking a taking a woman to a doctor and now she has a, you know, four, three, three and a half-year-old son running around.

Kim McIntire 45:50

You know, so we have to put a plug in. So if you have not heard that episode, go back and listen to Sammy and Josh Brighaman's testimony about adopting a homeless woman's baby. Yeah. And and how much they loved on her and they loved on him. What a story.

Katie Marsh 46:05

Because it would have been an example. And it would have been overwhelming to her if she had thought that was the future initially, right? She wasn't ready for that. True. She was ready just for that day. So I'm going to take care of you today. Yeah. Because that's all. And she literally I remember her saying to me, I will not adopt this baby because I have I have I don't have the energy for that. I can't do it. And then now she cannot imagine her life, and God has given her all the energy that she needs. She's real tired someday still, but because he moves around a lot. But he is a toddler. Right, right, right. But it's like, just be faithful today. And what a gift. Let God plan it out, right?

Kim McIntire 46:40

What a gift. Of yes. Yes. Amazing. Let's pick up at eighteen, verse eighteen. But the Jewish leaders demanded, What are you doing? If God gave you authority to do this, show us a miraculous sign to prove it. All right, Jesus replied, destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. What? They exclaimed. It has taken forty six years to build this temple, and you can rebuild it in three days. But when Jesus said this temple, he meant his own body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered he had said this, and they believed both the scriptures and what Jesus had said. Because of the miraculous signs Jesus did in Jerusalem at the Passover celebration, many began to trust in him. But Jesus didn't trust them because he knew all people. No one needed to tell him about human nature, for he knew what was in each person's heart. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Gariss 47:45

Well, I think it's um I I think it's important to remember, yes, he did cleanse the temple and for a good reason. But uh particularly I think this is a chapter of trying to show who Jesus is. Um that he is indeed this was not about the temple. Right. This was about Jesus. Right. Um and and that whole mindset shift that's happening. And now us he's saying, I'm the temple. In fact, the word he uses at the beginning of this chapter in verse in verse 14, or not the beginning of the chapter, but in this section of cleaning the cleansing the temple, he uses the temple courts. That's one word in the Greek. But the word he uses in uh uh verse 19, destroy this temple, is uh I don't know how to pronounce it, in a O S is the Greek word. Okay, and it means shrine. It's more he is the uh embodiment of God, he is the vessel of God. And then 1 Corinthians 3, we could look at that scripture. Uh, Katie, maybe you could even look it up. It's 1 Corinthians 3, 16 and 17. Um, and then how the scripture talks about us being the temple of the Lord. So he wasn't, of course, he wasn't talking about. We know that, right? But even then he is setting this new precedent that the worship is is not a place, right? It can be wherever we are because his spirit is living in us, yes, which is, in fact, that's what he told the woman at the well. Right. You know, he said, There'll come a time when you don't have to go to that mountain. That's right. You will worship in spirit and truth. So that's a fascinating. Katie, do you have that scripture?

Katie Marsh 50:02

It says, Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's spirit dwells in your midst? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person, for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

Julie Gariss 50:14

And so once again, the disciples remember this after he says that, after he's been resurrected, and they're thinking back over all he's done, and and the scripture says, and they believed. Again, again, again. We've just had that in just a few chapters. Just a few or just a few verses before they believed. Yeah. Now they're believing again. So um, I can't even imagine if I'd have been a disciple and heard all this for three years and you and still not really getting it completely. Right. And then it starts clicking, everything starts falling into place. And of course, they had the Holy Spirit to help them. Sure. Um, Peter, just Peter alone is a totally different person after the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That's right.

Kim McIntire 51:13

So He went from so scared to bold.

Julie Gariss 51:16

Yes, and that's that the fact that we are vessels for that spirit.

Kim McIntire 51:20

We bury him. Yeah, it's amazing. Beautiful, what a gift it is. This was indeed a rich chapter. And I'm so grateful that we had the time to talk through it today. So we're gonna close in prayer and then we'll conclude this episode.

Prayer And Closing Requests

Kim McIntire 51:35

Father God, we thank you for the truth that we've gleaned from your word. We thank you that you are our joy, Jesus, and that you are an abundance of all that we need, that you provide in ways that go beyond anything we could ask, hope, or imagine. Thank you that you accepted an invitation and everything changed. Thank you that you usher joy into our lives, Lord, that you are the God of miracles. Thank you that your love for your people is so deep that you care about every single detail of our lives. Thank you, thank you, Lord. And Father, we think about you cleansing the temple, Jesus, you cleansing the temple and what that means. And we just want to invite you to turn the tables of our heart, Lord. Turn the tables of our heart, God. Turn the tables of our churches, God. We need you. Remind us to ask that question in the morning when we talk with you. Lord, what is one thing that I can do for you today? And Lord, multiply it. We need your Holy Spirit help and guidance. So, God, we are asking and we're seeking and we're knocking. Use us, God, for your glory. Help us to take these truths and not just know them, but live them. We just give all of this to you, God. We love you and we praise your name. God, be glorified through this podcast, we pray. And if there is one who does not know you as Savior, we pray today would be the day of their salvation. We pray these things in your holy and sacred name, Jesus. Amen. Thank you both so much for being with me. Thank you today. What a joy. And thank you, listeners, for taking your time to be with us today. Please share the series because we believe God's word has the power to change lives. Also, remember to check out our website at it'stimetoriseup.org. We would love to hear your feedback. We pray God's grace and peace will be with you all in Jesus' name.